[jomni]

I plan to build my very first simple modification of a SF2 Desert Campaign (probably the latest date).

Set in the 90's, the cold war is over. Dhimar and Paran are left to fight their war by themselves.
So what would be "realistic" aircraft to use?

Dhimar:
Dhimar's doctrine is to use small multirole fighters...
I'm definitely using the F-5E as it's one of the most exported western jets to 3rd world countries.
I'm also fielding 2 squadrons of F-16A.
Should I have a dedicated attack plane? Like keep some A-4's from the previous war? Which model?

Paran:
Paran's organization is just like in the previous wars.
They would mostly have Mig-21, Mig-23, Su-17(?).
But they will have two squadrons of Mig-29A's.
So what specific models of Mig-21 / 23 should I use? Those that are quite modern and exported...

As for the ground units... which ones to use?
I prefer to pick from stock ground units.

Suggestions much appreciated... thanks.

[JonathanRL]

If I may be so bold as to state that I am dead sick of fighing MiG-21s - regardless of Era. We did see Paran use Mirage 5D in the later campaigns. Maybe this is an option? Esp as France and in some cases Great Britain has not hesitated to sell to theese regions.

If would probably use a mixture of MiG-23s, maybe a single squadron of 25s/31s, Mirages and the like for Paran.

With the F-5 and F-16 in place, I do not really see that Dhimar would have a need for a dedicated Attack Aircraft, but a few late era A-4s for Reserve duty never hurts. Considering their doctrine, the Harrier (earlier models, doubt they can afford later ones), is also an option. You could always have a extra F-5E tailored for Ground Attack.

[exhausted]

For MiG-21s try the M, MF, and FL. We can always pretend that India did updates for their fleet. For 23s try the MS and MF, but no MLs. Try one squadron of REALLY GOOD MiG-29 drivers, since Paran isn't that large.

[DaveJS]

jomni

This sounds like a great idea.

If I may be so bold sir,

Here is my suggestions as I have been thinking about doing this for years.

I would give Dhimari 4 tank divisions (M-48A2 and A3's) and give the Parani 7 divisions all T-54's and T-55's.

Cut back on one Mig-29 unit to make up the for the superior tank units. Make them excellent though.

I would leave one Mig-21 squadron and make them some kind of reserve unit. Give them Mig-23's Flogger H's and lots of them.


For the F-16's, give them ADF version's as those were retired and ended up in foreign hands. Keep them for A2A only. As far as A-4's go I would give them A-4E/F's. Lots of CBU's to handle the tanks.


The F-5E's (and even throw FC's excellent F-5F in there) as the catch all multi-role plane.

Finally Dhimari should have excellent on all ratings since being trained by the US. Parani should have superior numbers but piss poor training.

Just my thoughts.

[jomni]

Ok thanks for the tips.

[pato poli]

Hello,

I fly the "16" on WOI, and i found it too much superior to the Migs 21/23. If you put 1 or 2 Sqd., please make some balance putting the same quantity on Mig-29, and giving they the same training quality.

Reading some forum of defense, I understend that the superiority of USA military is not based on personal training, but based on superior command and control. So, one US pilot got the same training that a URSS pilot, or others country. At 1978 Argentine pilots got the same hours of training that NATO pilots, even with differents tactics, the quality and inteligence should be similars.

If i will be the minister of defense of Paran, would like some Mig-25 for recon and intercept, some Mig-27 for ground attack, Su-25 for CAS, and will buy all the SAMs that money can buy. The Mirage/Kfir/Cheeta should be a good cost/efficency fighter, and found some A-A and A-G quality missiles, forget about the rockets pod and dumb bomb: we are at the 90s

At the Dhimar side, will search for some F-16 ADF (if multiroll not available), Multi-roll like M-2000 or F-1, the olds A-4s should be modernized kind A-4K or AR (ECM-decoys-Maverick-paveway capable). The F-5 is a good option, specially Tiger 3 model. If money available, well, some harrier would be nice.

Big bombers or medium bombers ar out of fashion, and those countrys should expend that money on more fighter bomber units.

Thanks, bye

[jomni]

Good thing you raised the topic about bombers.
What to do with bomber squadrons? Keep the same planes that are being used during the 70's?

This post has been edited by jomni: 09 February 2010 - 06:01 AM

[jomni]

Ok I made a first draft.
Why is it not appearing in the campaign menu?
Is Dhimar not a playable nation?
I can only select the mercs.

This post has been edited by jomni: 09 February 2010 - 07:36 AM

[DaveJS]

pato poli, on 09 February 2010 - 06:03 AM, said:

Reading some forum of defense, I understend that the superiority of USA military is not based on personal training, but based on superior command and control. So, one US pilot got the same training that a URSS pilot, or others country. At 1978 Argentine pilots got the same hours of training that NATO pilots, even with differents tactics, the quality and inteligence should be similars.

I hate to disagree with you but yes it IS superior training thus why NATO, Israel, India, France and others send their crews to Red Flag every year for training. We do have excellent command and control and that plays a big factor but we train like we fight and fight like we train. How do I know? 19 years in the USAF, that's how I know. No Soviet pilot ever had the training a USAF pilot had. I can give you example after example after example of that.

To make up for the F-16 superiority has over the Mig-23, the Parani's would employ them in vast numbers. That is how the Soviet doctrine worked and if Jomni is basing it off that then that would be the ocrrect way to balance that out. To put is simple, vast numbers for the Parani's and tech superiority Dhimar if you are going to set it up like that. As far as bombers go, Give the Parani's, Tu-16's and TU-22's to keep the F-16 ADF's busy and with a limited number of ADF's and a good number of bombers it would prove hard to cover them all. For Dhimar I would give them B-57's as their main bomber force.

[jomni]

USAFMTL, on 09 February 2010 - 10:19 PM, said:

I hate to disagree with you but yes it IS superior training thus why NATO, Israel, India, France and others send their crews to Red Flag every year for training. We do have excellent command and control and that plays a big factor but we train like we fight and fight like we train. How do I know? 19 years in the USAF, that's how I know. No Soviet pilot ever had the training a USAF pilot had. I can give you example after example after example of that.

To make up for the F-16 superiority has over the Mig-23, the Parani's would employ them in vast numbers. That is how the Soviet doctrine worked and if Jomni is basing it off that then that would be the ocrrect way to balance that out. To put is simple, vast numbers for the Parani's and tech superiority Dhimar if you are going to set it up like that. As far as bombers go, Give the Parani's, Tu-16's and TU-22's to keep the F-16 ADF's busy and with a limited number of ADF's and a good number of bombers it would prove hard to cover them all. For Dhimar I would give them B-57's as their main bomber force.

Yup I kept the bombers default. B-57 for Dhimar and Tu-16 / 22 for Paran.

I'm liking what I see so far. I only have 1 F-16 squadron for Dhimar and 1 MiG-29 super elite Squadron for Paran.
I haven't seen these two squadrons in action after 2 missions.
Oh there's an Independent Libyan squadron from the default scenario with Mirage 5 that I kept as reinforcements for Paran.
All the rest are F-5E's vs. 3 varieties of Mig-23s. F-5's are holding up but it's hard fighting a "sea" of MiG-23's with just two missiles per mission.
So far I can only pay mercs (F-5E as default plane).

So should I edit Nations.ini to play Dhimar and Paran?

For those who love variety, this is not a campaign for you. But I guess the campaign is a fascinating testbed for east vs. west doctrines.

This post has been edited by jomni: 09 February 2010 - 08:35 AM

[DaveJS]

I would give them 2 F-16 units, to tackle the Mig-29's whose job would be to escort the bombers with Mig-23's as back up. The theory behind this would be more fighters to escort the bombers. So even 2 squadrons of ADF's would be hard pressed by the numbers. The F-5E's job would be to go after the bombers and avoid contact with the Mig-29's. SO now you have F-16 ADF covering the F-5E's (from Mig-29's) who have to take out the bombers. You start to get into a Battle of Britain situation here where better tactics and traing won over shear force of numbers.

[suhsjake]

I would throw in some Chinese Aircraft for Paran. Some F-6s and F-7s would give them more flavor.

[pato poli]

[quote name='USAFMTL' date='09 February 2010 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1265725165' post='384967']
I hate to disagree with you but yes it IS superior training thus why NATO, Israel, India, France and others send their crews to Red Flag every year for training. We do have excellent command and control and that plays a big factor but we train like we fight and fight like we train. How do I know? 19 years in the USAF, that's how I know. No Soviet pilot ever had the training a USAF pilot had. I can give you example after example after example of that.

My stimated USAF, I dont hate disagree with you

I think everybody train as hard as possible. USAF train very well, you make excercise with almost all air force in the world, teaching and learning. Everybody train like fight, you cant train one way and then fight another, maybe the tactics are olds or diferents, but when you learn that (maybe in middle of the war) you have to change train and tactics.

IAF train hard as you (maybe), and how you know how a Soviet pilot train if you never was in the Soviet air force? I think they have a diferents strategy and tactics, but hours of training should be similars (if money is available)

In the SF1, the soviet and paranis have very low trainig, moral, and inteligence. Even putting 4 bombers, a medium player can intercept them, leaving their wingmans to fight de escorts. In a couple of mission the superiority in numbers will be zero. I prefer give them a little more training, some "good" units, maybe some "excellent" to the elite units, and given them more inteligence and moral to make them fight better, no superb but better.

The red flag is not the only excercise, here a picture of the southern falcon when USAF come to Argentina (the second time you send the National Guard, i dont know if they are part of the USAF or are under other command). This one is not training hard

Attached File(s)

•  f16.jpg (47.05K)
  Number of downloads: 0

[DaveJS]

You win some and you lose some. Looks like that Viper pilot lost one. We know how the Soviets train. Thus why the USAF/USN and the USMC (And the IAF) are the world's largest distributor of Mig parts. If we didn't know how they trained then we wouldn't of been able to rack of up all the kill counts we have against Soviets fighters, and their tactics. These same tactics they used to train other forces and were defeated. Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, the IAF against the Arabs nations. But do not take my word for it, history has already proven that.

Sorry jomni for derailing your thread. Iam very much interested in your progress in this project.

[Crusader]

eh..
in that picture above.. perhaps the Mirage pilot isnt training hard enough... ?
the picture is shown upside down, btw... turn it 180 degree for a correct view
the actual gunsight/pipper is lagging way behind the F-16
only the fuselage reference line cross is on the F-16 but that doesnt mean anything since both players are moving rapidly.. guns wouldnt hit

its a nice picture but really has no meaning... for a valid (training kill) several frames with the pipper on the target are required

and now .. NOTE!!
with writing that I only try to interpret the gun cam picture... I DO NOT speak either pro Argentina or pro USAF !!


and now .. part two :

back to topic ...
Dhimar vs Paran only is cool.. done that with the stock campaign in SFP1 some years ago.. and I played with a mercenary squadron flying the Gnat

EDIT: YEAH!

This post has been edited by Crusader: 10 February 2010 - 11:18 AM

[pato poli]

About the picture is the only one i found, but nobody explain really what it means, i got one of a Pucara nose with 4 kill marks: 2 Mirages, 1 A-4 and 1 IA-63 Pampa. After the excercise they canceled the marks to avoid "hard feelings"
Dont ask me about the results (the first year someone talk about USAF victorys on A-A about 80%, the second year goes about 70% )


Going back to the campaing: those bombers will survive in the 90s???? if you put some modern AAA/SAM, you will need very good SEAD pilots and equipment (ill put some HARM and mavericks, leaving GBU or Rockeye to CAS missions)

[baffmeister]

jomni, on 09 February 2010 - 06:28 AM, said:

Yup I kept the bombers default. B-57 for Dhimar and Tu-16 / 22 for Paran.

I'm liking what I see so far. I only have 1 F-16 squadron for Dhimar and 1 MiG-29 super elite Squadron for Paran.
I haven't seen these two squadrons in action after 2 missions.
Oh there's an Independent Libyan squadron from the default scenario with Mirage 5 that I kept as reinforcements for Paran.
All the rest are F-5E's vs. 3 varieties of Mig-23s. F-5's are holding up but it's hard fighting a "sea" of MiG-23's with just two missiles per mission.
So far I can only pay mercs (F-5E as default plane).

So should I edit Nations.ini to play Dhimar and Paran?

For those who love variety, this is not a campaign for you. But I guess the campaign is a fascinating testbed for east vs. west doctrines.

You will have to edit the nations.ini to make Dhimar and Paran player flyable in campaigns. As the game uses the nation number to assign decals when using the INSIGNIA approach in the decal.ini, it would be best to keep the stock Dhimar and Paran nation numbers. Here is a way to do that:

// Zaire 63-71
[Nation201]..............................................Last country in the stock nations.ini
Name=Zaire_OLD63
DisplayName=Democratic Republic of the Congo Air Force

[Nation202]
[Nation203]
[Nation204]
[Nation205]
[Nation206]
[ETC]
[ETC]
[ETC]
[Nation244]
[Nation245]
[Nation246]
[Nation247]
[Nation248]
[Nation249]
[Nation250]
[Nation251]
[Nation252]
[Nation253]
[Nation254]
[Nation255]

[Nation256]
Name=Dhimar
DisplayName=Dhimari Air Force
Alignment=FRIENDLY
PilotNameList=NamesArabic.lst
RankList=RanksRAF.lst
CallsignList=CallsignsUS.lst
Formation.Fighter=USFighter
Formation.Attack=USFighter
Formation.Bomber=USBomber
Formation.Transport=USBomber
Formation.Tank=USTank
Formation.MobileAD=USAD
PilotTrainingStandard=POOR
GenderRatio=0
DebriefSuccessMusic=DebriefSuccess.wav
DebriefFailMusic=DebriefFail.wav
DebriefKilledMusic=DebriefKilled.wav
SpeechFile=USAFSpeech.cat
SpeechTextFile=USAFSpeechText.str

[Nation257]
Name=Paran
DisplayName=Parani Air Force
Alignment=ENEMY
PilotNameList=NamesArabic.lst
RankList=RanksRAF.lst
CallsignList=CallsignsUS.lst
Formation.Fighter=SovietFighter
Formation.Attack=SovietFighter
Formation.Bomber=SovietBomber
Formation.Transport=SovietBomber
Formation.Tank=SovietTank
Formation.MobileAD=SovietAD
PilotTrainingStandard=POOR
GenderRatio=0
DebriefSuccessMusic=DebriefSuccess.wav
DebriefFailMusic=DebriefFail.wav
DebriefKilledMusic=DebriefKilled.wav
SpeechFile=USAFSpeech.cat
SpeechTextFile=USAFSpeechText.str

As long as the numbers are all there the game will ignore the empty data fields. Using this approach Dhimar and Paran will be player flyable in campaigns and you won't have to extract and re-number the Dhimar and Paran decals.

[jomni]

Ah I now know my mistake. Didn't know the Dhimar and Paran nation number.

[suhsjake]

Hey jomni, check out these two links.

http://forum.combata...s&showfile=1630

That is an old nations.ini mod pack. Its not compatible with the new nations.ini in SF2 but you can use it for reference.

http://forum.combata...&showfile=10394

And always, Spinners awesome Dhimar decals.

Good luck

[jomni]

Just curious. Why is this thread stikied?
Is it because of the nations.ini edits?